<_really> now if we can wake someone up we can start
<MerrysPlace> sure _really :)
<MerrysPlace> since its now 20h00gmt.
<Miles_V> yup - if _really is awake I'm sure the rest are here too
<_really> it's 2:01 in arkansas
<MerrysPlace> don't think that anyone else was gonna appear?
<Miles_V> that sounds so mystical :)
* MerrysPlace nudges everyone
<QuietSilence> ouch
<MerrysPlace> what did everyone think of The Da Vinci Code?
<lyonnesse> :)
<_really> as a book it was mediocre. as history it was superstition
<Miles_V> the story kept me occupied - I enjoyed reading it
<dpd> as a novel or as a hypothesis ?
<MerrysPlace> as a novel
<lyonnesse> yes maybe we should divide the debate in two parts ...
<Miles_V> the questions that one need to ask is how 'real' are the facts ?
<lyonnesse> the books and the hypothesis
<_really> as a novel the characters were paper thin and only distinguishable by gender
<dpd> i agree Miles_V
<_really> the story was unlikely...spurred by people doing things people are not likely to do in reaction to situations
<Rapture> :)
<_really> but it moved along and was mildly fun
<lyonnesse> mmh could you give us some examples ?
<_really> who?
<lyonnesse> it is a bit vague ...
<Miles_V> as a novel I enjoyed it
<lyonnesse> you
<lyonnesse> :P
<_really> yes....langdon's reaction to sophie's urging him to escape
<lyonnesse> I think also that it is a good novel with an original story
<_really> no innocent feeling person would have reacted that way
<lyonnesse> but she doesn't give him any alternative ...
<_really> he could have done nothing
<Miles_V> _really - if every novelist wrote how things would happen in real life the book would have been extremely boring!
<dpd> i think it was a nice book to read
<_really> he could have said he was innocent...like nearly everyone would have
<lyonnesse> no I don't think so
<Miles_V> the pace was by nesecity fast paced
<lyonnesse> I think we develop a sort of panick irrepressible when we are in front of authorities
<_really> miles, a good story should include sensible reaction to situations or deal with senseless reactions as senseless
<_really> this treated senseless reactions as sensible
<lyonnesse> never felt guilty when arrested by police to check your papers ?
<dpd> i think the author has a point to make and to make that point he takes a few short cuts
<lyonnesse> even if you have done nothing bad ?
<_really> i never jumped from a second story window
<Miles_V> artistic licence!
<_really> nah....bad writing
<_really> formulaic
<lyonnesse> mmh
<lyonnesse> I thought it was just the mic which "jumped"
<Miles_V> and yet see how popular it is! :)
<_really> yes....so was "my mother the car" popular
<Miles_V> Dan Brown has abviously hit the right note with a lot of readers
<_really> heroin is popular
<_really> tobacco is popular
<lyonnesse> LOL
<MerrysPlace> lol
<lyonnesse> I think it is really an original plot
<Miles_V> I rather like tobasco myself
<_really> it's a very unoriginal plot but it is based on original theses
<lyonnesse> and which gives you the desire to go and look at da vinci paintings
<_really> but the plot is a man running from the police for something he didnt do
<lyonnesse> or read books on the graal mystery
<Miles_V> indeed lyonnesse - it made me look around
<_really> the theme was original
<lyonnesse> sure !
<dpd> but is it the mystery/action part of the book which made it popular or the historical angle ?
<lyonnesse> and for me it is a great quality for a book
<lyonnesse> obviously I imagine it is the thesis which is developed
<_really> dpd i think it's that it made readers feel like intellectuals painlessly
<Miles_V> i enjoy the historical angles he incorporated, as well as the numerous slights towards the Roman Catholic churc
<_really> i think it was popular because it made people think they were getting a free glimpse of eternal truth
<lyonnesse> It made a lot of persons aware of some work done by researchers
<dpd> _really has a point there
<Miles_V> h
<lyonnesse> LOL Miles_V
* Rapture agrees with _really
<FlipinEck> one thing I quite liked about it was that it wasn't entirely predictable or formulaic, and I could only find 2 slight plot contradictions
<lyonnesse> but who cares ? if ppl think they are intellectual because they read a good suspens ?
<FlipinEck> I don't care if it's true of if it's not
<_really> that is true. it wasnt predictable. i do think the overall plot was formulaic though
<MerrysPlace> part of it just could've been the facination with the grail. Everyone likes a good quest occasionally.
<lyonnesse> yes MerrysPlace
<_really> but it was impossible to predict the ending
<FlipinEck> people have been flogging the Templar/ Mason / conspiracy - international organisation thing for ever
<lyonnesse> you are quite right
<FlipinEck> but this is quite a fun variant
<_really> in fact it was hard to know what was coming next
<Miles_V> I enjoyed the interpretation of Mary Magdalene as the holy grail
<lyonnesse> this is not his Miles_V :)
<_really> please keep in mind that im talking about the story as a story...not about the ideas behind it
<FlipinEck> and also the comment that the search for the grail is the point of the grail
<DaveX_Svr> oh I dunno. after angels and demons it seemed predictable - like it was the same book, with very slightly different trappings
<lyonnesse> some works were previously published about it
<Miles_V> it was the 1st time I heard of it
<FlipinEck> of what Miles
<lyonnesse> but I think that the beginning of the book was a bit slow
* Miles_V nods but points out that it would not other wise have been know by himself
<lyonnesse> yes so did i
<dpd> are his theories backed by any facts - i mean about the Holy Grail, Mary Magdalene etc.
<Miles_V> FE: the Mary as grail issue
<FlipinEck> As I was reading it I kept feeling it was the literary equivalent of 24
<FlipinEck> fast paced, a lot packed in quite claustrophobically into small periods of time
<Rapture> I lked the part when Langdon Explains about PHI.
<FlipinEck> cutting rapidly between things
<lyonnesse> the theory about MM being Jesus wife is not a big surprise
<lyonnesse> had heard of it before
<FlipinEck> no well that's old hat
<_really> dpd, no.....they're backed by supposition of crackpots who are laughed at by both historians and theologeans
<FlipinEck> I like the little apparently supporting details like Mona Lisa - Amon L'isa
<FlipinEck> or however it was spelled
<lyonnesse> yes :)
<lyonnesse> and the fact that it is really a treasure hunt ...
<FlipinEck> and I liked the tangent about the Vitruvian Man
<lyonnesse> going step by step
<_really> all sorts of word games have been played over the centuries...who knows how many are accidental
<FlipinEck> well sure
<FlipinEck> but I enjoyed that as a detail
<_really> shakespeare was probably one of the translators of the king james bible.....
<dpd> the play on words and anagrams were aplenty though
<lyonnesse> yes
<Miles_V> one woders how much Da Vinci did infact symbolically 'hide' in his work
<FlipinEck> well I have no time for 'queen elizabeth wrote shakespeare's plays' sort of conspiracy theories
<lyonnesse> not bad for a specialist like you ;)
<_really> count 42 words into the 42nd psalm and you find the word shake....42 words from the end you find the word speare...was he signing his work?
<lyonnesse> there has been a lot of work about that Miles
<FlipinEck> plenty
<FlipinEck> but that wasn't unusual
<FlipinEck> art was symbolic more than it was visual in many periods
<Miles_V> at least Ban Brown made me want to go reasearh a bit
<_really> i once attended a lecture on hidden symbolism in the last supper at rice university
<FlipinEck> everything about composition and elements made a statement
<lyonnesse> yes and ?
<_really> there are all sorts of theories about hidden symbols in it....no-one knows if they're intended as symbols or not
<lyonnesse> what did they say ?
<FlipinEck> but I have read and previously thought it was the case that it is a woman in The Last Supper, for example
<FlipinEck> well sometimes _really but in some cases it is known
<_really> the lecture had nothing to do with the symbols pointed out in the davinci code
<lyonnesse> I imagine that everyone here went to have a look at the painting ...
<FlipinEck> I like the hand with the knife
<lyonnesse> at least on internet
<FlipinEck> that suprised me
<lyonnesse> yes
<_really> it was about the religious symbolism of the placement of the figures and the geometry of the picture as a whole
<FlipinEck> never noticed that
<lyonnesse> I had never noticed it
<Miles_V> yup intresting that
<Miles_V> but the painting is in a fairly poor state
<_really> the lecturer said at the end that it's impossible to know if he was inventing subtleties
<FlipinEck> oh they've got the detail here http://www.danbrown.com/secrets/davinci_code/last_supper.html
<lyonnesse> _really : it is well known that da vinci put a lot of pranks in his paintings
<FlipinEck> yep
<_really> lyonnesse...that's theorized...nobody knows his intentions
<dpd> so how does one know where the facts end and suppositions begin
<FlipinEck> actually that detail of the knife, it looks like someone is crouching out of sight behind the other bloke, and holding the knife with one hand and the other hand on her shoulder
<_really> he never wrote that he was putting pranks into his work
<lyonnesse> I imagine that it is not that old ...
<lyonnesse> he left some writings
<FlipinEck> I thought he did explicitly
<_really> dpd theres no way to know
<_really> flip,show me where. ive read some of his writing and ive seen no hint of it
<FlipinEck> I'm sure I read something by Stephen Jay Gould about Da Vinci discussing it
<FlipinEck> hmm
<MerrysPlace> plus, dpd, the author himself said most of it is fiction, except what is on the "facts" pg
<_really> id like to see that
<FlipinEck> don't know, it was on the reading list when I was at university :/
<FlipinEck> long time ago
<FlipinEck> and does it matter anyway?
<FlipinEck> as a story it flies
<_really> it doesnt
<lyonnesse> but I must say that some historical mistakes he made in the book made me wonder about other facts he was stating
<dpd> MerrysPlace my ebook did not have the facts page
<_really> but its not just a story. regardless of the intention of the author his book will probably change the way the world looks at religion and history
<lyonnesse> for example he is saying that Godefroy de Bouillon was king of France
<lyonnesse> it is an awful mistake
<Miles_V> one question we need to ask is : Did Da Vinci really have that much more info on Christ / MM etc (in 1500) than what we know today?
<lyonnesse> I don't understand how he could have said that
<_really> miles, he would have if he had the grail :)
<MerrysPlace> dpd: http://www.danbrown.com/novels/davinci_code/faqs.html - read the second question
<FlipinEck> lol
<lyonnesse> it is possible ...
<FlipinEck> or even if he was a member of some sect
<Miles_V> :)
<lyonnesse> maybe he was the member of a secret circle
<DaveX_Svr> my paper copy doesn't have a facts page either :)
<lyonnesse> I imagine that a lot of documents of this era were lost ...
<Miles_V> so give me documentation from around 30AD then :)
<lyonnesse> :P
<_really> merrys it's very easy to say a million lies and then in small print say you didnt really mean it
<_really> nobody notices
<lyonnesse> you well know that a lot of books were lost, burned ...
<Miles_V> how much distortion of truth & fact can occur over 15 centuries
<Miles_V> think about it
<_really> most of the apocrypha still exists although im sure some was lost
<lyonnesse> yes but what you say goes for both parties :P
<Miles_V> if the chruch had an agenda so could other sects and societes as well
<_really> miles...a lot...and a lot more just got done by dan brown :)
<Miles_V> what a joyful world we live in :D
<lyonnesse> so what about Nicea ?
<_really> nicea happened but brown distorted it
<lyonnesse> I wanted to get some information on it but didn't have the time to look
<Miles_V> Nicea is true - they 'cencored' the books of the byble
<_really> i looked
<Miles_V> they chose what to incorporate
<_really> they did "NOT" vote jesus divine
<lyonnesse> were you there _really ?
<_really> you could twist it to make it seem that way but it takes considerable twisting
<lyonnesse> LOL
<_really> i was there
<_really> im an old guy
<lyonnesse> ooh but you said you were 64 ...
<Miles_V> very
<Miles_V> 64K ?
<lyonnesse> just a reference to the Beatles' song ?
<lyonnesse> :P
<_really> jack benny said he was 39
<lyonnesse> who is jack benny ?
<_really> a comedian who claimed to be 39 for about 40 years
<_really> it was a standing joke with him
<lyonnesse> LOL!
<_really> he's probably the most famous american comedian ever...he had a radio and tv show forever
<lyonnesse> ok anyway who has real info about Nicea ?
<_really> once the announcer said "now i want you to meet jacks older sister...formerly his younger sister"
<lyonnesse> LOL
<_really> i looked up and read about nicea
<lyonnesse> don't try to divert us ;)
<_really> i ws there
<lyonnesse> in summer 1964 ?
<lyonnesse> :P
<_really> i think it was 328 or some such
<_really> i forget now
<_really> memory fades
<lyonnesse> you were already old at that time ?
<_really> i was much younger then
<lyonnesse> is it what you mean ?
<lyonnesse> LOL
<dpd> dan brown is good becuase after reading this book i do feel like reading his other books too
<lyonnesse> Miles ?
<FlipinEck> (_really): they did "NOT" vote jesus divine <-- the jewish faith had a congress to vote on his status and decided he was a bona fida prophet
<lyonnesse> what did you read about Nicea ?
<FlipinEck> so did Islam but I only know that from a friend
<_really> the issue was that there were some people claiming that jesus was a man and they voted whether to allow that thought
<lyonnesse> yes Jesus is considered as a prophet by muslims
<FlipinEck> well that is what happend for jews and muslims
<FlipinEck> they both decided he was a divinely inspired prophet
<FlipinEck> all muslims will follow his name with 'peace be upon him' as they would mohammed
<_really> the vote looked slightly against those claiming he was a man until they announced that those voting that he was a man would be excommunicated...then it shifted quickly
<Miles_V> yes lyonnesse?
<FlipinEck> all practicing muslims
<lyonnesse> I wanted some facts about Nicea from you ...
<_really> 4 people voted that he was a man...the rest voted that he was god....already the accepted position of the church
<Miles_V> lyonnesse - let me find a link
<_really> the 4 were excommunicated
<_really> google on council of nicea....lots of sites
<lyonnesse> and yes dpd you are right ...
<Miles_V> lyonnesse : http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/coun2.html
<lyonnesse> the book is good because after reading it you want to read other books of the same author
<lyonnesse> thanks ;)
<dpd> :)
<_really> i had 2 of his books before davinci code was published and i didnt read them...i may now...but not soon
<DaveX_Svr> hmm well - I found angels and demons to be almost the same as davinci - and digital fortress was probably different, but its difficult to decide when you keep throwing it across the room...
<FlipinEck> http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11044a.htm seems pretty informative
<Miles_V> :)
<Miles_V> LOL!
<FlipinEck> "the is not a book to be tossed aside lightly - it should be thrown with great force"
<lyonnesse> LOL DaveX_Svr :)
<lyonnesse> ROFL
<MerrysPlace> lol
<_really> good flip :)
<Rapture> lol
<FlipinEck> Dorothy Parker I think
<Miles_V> lovely quip :)
<_really> interesting that she commented on books written long after her death
<lyonnesse> the thing is : even if he is spouting lies why not being tolerant and accept that some ppl can have different views on christian history ?
<FlipinEck> On the subject of the vote at Nicea "The adhesion was general and enthusiastic. All the bishops save five declared themselves ready to subscribe to this formula, convince that it contained the ancient faith of the Apostolic Church. The opponents were soon reduced to two, Theonas of Marmarica and Secundus of Ptolemais, who were exiled and anathematized. "
<lyonnesse> LOL _really
<DaveX_Svr> FlipinEck: true though. problem is - digital fortress addresses one of my favourate fields - cryptography - and gets it so wrong it is unbearable
<_really> because he's probably not spouting what he thinks is truth...he's selling lies
<FlipinEck> but is a fiction the same thing as a lie
<FlipinEck> all novels are lies
<FlipinEck> in that they haven't happened
<lyonnesse> yes
<FlipinEck> that doesn't make him a liar
<DaveX_Svr> although the cryptogram bits of davinci aren't as irritating - more because they are effectively cryptic crossword clues rather than actual code
<FlipinEck> not more than any other writer in history
<lyonnesse> I think that he has the right to interpret what is not well known
<FlipinEck> he has the right to write whatever he likes, and we have the right not to read it!
<_really> its not true that all novels are lies
<lyonnesse> I don't understand the intolerance
<_really> fiction and lies are NOT the same thing
<FlipinEck> no that's true
<_really> i dislike superstition
<lyonnesse> ok put the "lies" thing on my bad command of english
<FlipinEck> so what is it in what he is saying that makes him a liar rather than a novelist?
<lyonnesse> ;)
<_really> i dislike passing of lies as truth and as history
<MerrysPlace> but dan brown isn't doing that
<lyonnesse> I was thinking of fictitious facts
<lyonnesse> or personal interpretation
<FlipinEck> well then you must not read books or watch films or television I would guess!!
<lyonnesse> :P
<_really> in a novel when a history teacher discusses history it's not true that that history teacher discussed history but it's not a lie..it's fiction
<FlipinEck> he could say that jesus was in fact a robot programmed by martians who built stonehenge while they wre visiting
<FlipinEck> is that a lie or a story?
<_really> but if the history related isn't true and that's not stated in the novel...then it's alie
<lyonnesse> LOL !
<lyonnesse> it is written fiction on the book !!!
<lyonnesse> and I imagine that he leaves the reader look for information on his own
<Miles_V> give us more Sci_Fi!
<_really> fiction isnt a lie...fiction isnt expected to be believed
<lyonnesse> which is not that bad
<Miles_V> fiction is FICTION!
<_really> davinci wanted us to believe the things he presented as history
<FlipinEck> okay
<lyonnesse> but what about belief ?
<FlipinEck> what about that film
<FlipinEck> about William Wallace
<FlipinEck> big in america
<DaveX_Svr> that can be the problem with fantasy or sci-fi set in the real world - some bits are obviously fake, other bits obviously real - the remainder, who knows?
<FlipinEck> someone tell me the name
<FlipinEck> very popular
<_really> a lie is saying something calculated to make others believe something that isnt true
<lyonnesse> Braveheart
<FlipinEck> that's it
<_really> fiction doesnt fit that definition...davinci code does
<FlipinEck> historically completely crap
<lyonnesse> I think that if you are interested in a fiction then you have to go and look by yourself to get the real facts
<DaveX_Svr> indeed so - a massive distortion of the legend, to the extent that several of the scottish clans were seriously considering lawsuits...
<lyonnesse> I don't think that this book made a lot of ppl change their opinion about religion
<lyonnesse> either they believe that Jesus was the son of God either they think that it is not true
<FlipinEck> oops interruption to mop up cup of tea cat just tippe dover
<lyonnesse> and they don't need a fiction to make their mind about it
<_really> i think it made a lot of people think they now know things they dont know
<FlipinEck> anyway, I was just saying that Braveheart was almost entirely an invention
<lyonnesse> yes FE
<FlipinEck> but in america it played well
<FlipinEck> because it backed up the idea of plucky celtic fringe
<dpd> welcome erhua
<_really> i didnt see braveheart
<lyonnesse> I liked the film because the views of Scotland are nice
<FlipinEck> fighting the plantagenet oppressor
<FlipinEck> so it told a made up story
<lyonnesse> but then I have also bought a book on the history of scotland :P
<FlipinEck> was it a lie or a film?
<FlipinEck> it was historical
<_really> i dont know. i havent seen it. i have no idea what it is or does
<FlipinEck> by your criteria it was a lie trying to make people believe a falsehood
<erhua> hello all
<lyonnesse> hello erhua :)
<FlipinEck> well you don't really need to have seen it, only to know that that is what it does
<Miles_V> hi erhua
<_really> if it presents fiction as fact then it's a lie...if that's it's intention
* lyonnesse stares at erhua : you are late !!!
<lyonnesse> but we have our own mind !!!
<FlipinEck> it is its intention in so far as it wanted to sell!
<lyonnesse> we have to check info
<FlipinEck> but it is art
<FlipinEck> can art only represent what exists?
<DaveX_Svr> agreed. it is *worse* than davinci - davinci makes no pretension that it is a historical truth, but braveheart is believed to be historically accurate by most viewers (outside of scotland of course)
<FlipinEck> or existed
<erhua> sorry my alarm failed to ring and it's 4:45 am here!
<_really> flip of course not
<FlipinEck> and how do we know when we have the accurate versino
<FlipinEck> what about conflicting perspectives
<_really> flip youre twisting my definition...are you really dan brown?
<FlipinEck> hehe I am
<FlipinEck> ;)
<FlipinEck> no
<lyonnesse> LOL
<FlipinEck> seriously
<MerrysPlace> lol
<_really> to me a lie is something that you say designed to make people believe something that isnt true
<lyonnesse> I think it is too easy to think that a fiction ... book or film can give you a real knowledge about historical facts
<FlipinEck> yes
<Miles_V> FE is soo confused sometimes ;) must be all the dust she is sniffing
<FlipinEck> we are all lazy
<FlipinEck> yeah that or the bloodloss
<FlipinEck> Mr Sympathy
<lyonnesse> LOL
<FlipinEck> :p
<lyonnesse> I hope you didn't put blood on the wood !!!!
<FlipinEck> I did
<_really> when i have alittle old lady school teacher drive my old junk jalopy before i sell it to you and then i claim it was driven by a little old lady school teacher ive said nothing untrue but ive lied
<lyonnesse> or you will have to put some paint on it ;)
<FlipinEck> you obviously don't know the little old lady school teachers I know ;)
<Miles_V> :Þ
<_really> i think there is a very large difference in fiction and lying
<lyonnesse> so this book is fiction
<_really> does that mean you wont buy the car?
<FlipinEck> damn right
<_really> yes it's fiction
<lyonnesse> Dan Brown took some historical facts and then fantasized around ...
<FlipinEck> if it was the little old lady school teacher round the corner's car, it would be full of used condoms
<lyonnesse> LOL !
<_really> yes...and made them seem to the reader like a glimpse of truth
<DaveX_Svr> lyonnesse: it is obviously fiction but some bits (davinci, the louvre, paris, that sort of thing) are obviously fact. how much of what you learn that is "new" is made up, and how much is fact you just weren't aware of?
<_really> the lie isnt in what brown said..it's in the way he said it
<FlipinEck> I think it is more that when fiction comes close to something we feel is important or is a sacred cow, we feel it should have more reverence and not play with it
<DaveX_Svr> lyonnesse: if you weren't aware that the louvre existed - would you be justified in assuming it was a fictional building?
<lyonnesse> about Paris and the Louvres as I said there is more mistake than things to discover
<FlipinEck> but Dave, I still don't understand this - books are usually set in real places
<FlipinEck> they don't usually tell you which bits are real and which bits aren't
<FlipinEck> because they are fiction
<lyonnesse> for example you can go to St Sulpice church
<dpd> lyonnesse agreed that dan brown took some facts and built a story round it - the point is that the subject he chose was close to many people's hearts
<FlipinEck> +l
<lyonnesse> you won't find the famous copper line :P
<FlipinEck> well quite dpd
<_really> flip now i think youre being disingenuous
<FlipinEck> not at all
<FlipinEck> I repeat
<FlipinEck> it is more that when fiction comes close to something we feel is important or is a sacred cow, we feel it should have more reverence and not play with it
<_really> you generally know that something is fiction
<lyonnesse> so the building is existing ... and he is inventing a bit around it :P
<_really> you may not know or care which items in it are fiction...they arent designed to change your thinking about history
<_really> or about anything
<lyonnesse> but why should we revere christian theories ?
<_really> theyre just settings for the book
<lyonnesse> it is again a question of tolerance I think
<_really> brown, in order to sell books, tried to convince us of untruth
<FlipinEck> I for example strongly dislike the church, so I am happy to take it as a story.. if it was about something that I see as important, I might be much more uncomfortable
<Miles_V> would we have such a debate on 'The Bourne Identity" ???
<FlipinEck> brown, in order to sell books, writes stories
<_really> im very intolerant of rip-off artists
<_really> miles....i dont think so
<FlipinEck> well whilst Brown isn't totally original, he puts together a very readable story
<lyonnesse> what is the Bourne identity ?
<FlipinEck> Matt Damon
<lyonnesse> yes I agree FE
<_really> the bourne identity doesnt try to sell us on an alternate view of history
<FlipinEck> doesn't it?
<DaveX_Svr> lyonnesse: its one in a series of books currently being made into films
<FlipinEck> history is anything that has happened
<_really> flip i agree that it was moderately interesting
<Miles_V> Dan Brown wrote a decent Fictional novel skirting grey areas where we wonder if he might be telling the truth
<lyonnesse> in fact there is a lot of historical novel which twist a bit the truth ...
<lyonnesse> to insert a character in the plot
<lyonnesse> and no one is shocked by that
<lyonnesse> :P
<Miles_V> that is why DVC is so succesfull - we anren;t sure
<_really> lyonesse that isnt intended to change our views
<Miles_V> aren't
<FlipinEck> well if a readable book prompts general interest in whether some obscure bits of culture might hide something else.. so what? They might! Or they might not!
<DaveX_Svr> in most fiction-set-in-real-world though, the author expects to be taken though the wringer if he sets a particular scene in a particular public place, then gets it wrong...
<dpd> novel means new and history means old - so there has to be a lot of deviation in the two
<FlipinEck> not really
<FlipinEck> history of the GUlf War, for example
<_really> interesting point dpd but how does it relate to this?
<FlipinEck> history of an institution comes up to the present
<FlipinEck> oh well
* FlipinEck shrugs
<DaveX_Svr> to the extent that continuity errors in even fictional locations (like star trek sets :) get pointed out ad nausium
<dpd> any thing which is a novel is not true to history even historic fiction
<FlipinEck> I enjoyed it, found it an entertaining
<_really> well, ive been the center of the debate and i just realized it...i promised myself i wouldnt do this but i got carried away
<lyonnesse> same here FE
<FlipinEck> meander through the many theories about Templars etc
<lyonnesse> LOL we didn't notice it at all _really ;)
<_really> i'll just observe and maybe make an occasional comment for the rest of it
<FlipinEck> I liked Foucault's Pendulum
<FlipinEck> which this bears a passing resemblance to
<dpd> yes and it raised a few interesting points.....and what if all that was true
<FlipinEck> Museums etc
<_really> flip i didnt read that...how similar is it?
<DaveX_Svr> indeed so. a masonic friend says the templar bits are about half right, but won't say which half :)
<lyonnesse> :)
<FlipinEck> well.. all I can say is that I was struck by a few similarities
<FlipinEck> Eco is a bit of an egg head
<FlipinEck> this is just a lying on the beach sort of novel
<FlipinEck> but more fun
<_really> yeah...ive only read "the name of the rose" by him...fine book
<FlipinEck> Eco's was quite hard work
<FlipinEck> yeah.. but I always feel he's a bit smug
<lyonnesse> didn't read the Foucault's pendulum
<FlipinEck> or.. 'look I am so clever'
<lyonnesse> LOL
<dpd> Eco's In The Name of the Rose deals with clergy too
<_really> smug? why?
<_really> yes it does
<FlipinEck> well I did actually manage to guess who dunnit in name of the rose
<FlipinEck> because when he started in with
<_really> it deals nicely with the collision of logic and faith
<FlipinEck> all that flippin detail
<lyonnesse> yes we shouldn't forget that Dan Brown has only written a suspens novel
<FlipinEck> I guessed that was where the answer lay
<FlipinEck> and that's what makes him seem a bit smug
<lyonnesse> he didn't tried to get a post in a historical academy ;)
<FlipinEck> that detail
<FlipinEck> he bombards you
<FlipinEck> where Dan B just feeds you a little
* Miles_V thinks FlipinEck should join us regularly every month :D
<FlipinEck> to take you where he wants you to head
<_really> i didnt think there was too much detail in the name of the rose
* FlipinEck hands Miles_V small bag of coins
<lyonnesse> LOL
<_really> the title and where it came from was delightful
<FlipinEck> oh all that stuff about council of this and Aristotle
* Miles_V quickly hides it away
<FlipinEck> well it's a personal thing isn't it
<_really> i suppose so
<dpd> _really It was a proper mystery story if i remember right
<FlipinEck> Foucault's pendulum was like that but more so if I remember right
<FlipinEck> ooh
<FlipinEck> synchronicity
<_really> dpd it was a mystery but there was much speculation about logic and faith in it
<dpd> yes that was there
<_really> i saw that as a movie first. then read the book and later listened to the audiobook
<_really> i plan to listen again
<lyonnesse> makes me feel like reading it :)
<_really> it is a wonderful book
<dpd> it was re-posted a few months back
<FlipinEck> sound familiar?
<_really> i have the unabridged audiobook
<_really> what?
<FlipinEck> the quote above
<MerrysPlace> on the topic of books ... any ideas on what to read next month?
<_really> too much went by..what?
<FlipinEck> does it sound familiar at all? You asked me how like Da Vinci Code it was
<FlipinEck> that
<_really> merrys, how about foucalts pendulum?
<FlipinEck> oh ha ha
<FlipinEck> that would be an interesting pairing
<lyonnesse> yes it would be a nice idea :)
<_really> flip...too spread out...later
<Miles_V> how about the 1st 6 books of the Thomas Covenant series ?
<lyonnesse> what is it ?
<FlipinEck> oh wow
<Miles_V> (just kidding)
<FlipinEck> haven't read those since they came out!
<MerrysPlace> thomas covenant turned out way to depressing.
<_really> i vote for foucalts pendulum
<FlipinEck> that was like... twenty years ago
<DaveX_Svr> plus gildenfire?
<FlipinEck> yeah he turned into a self pitying git
<lyonnesse> LOL
<MerrysPlace> what is foucalts pendulum?
<lyonnesse> still dunno what it is about
<lyonnesse> someone to enlighten me ?
<FlipinEck> it is that large description above
<Miles_V> yes - tell more on Foucalt?
<lyonnesse> LOL
<_really> merrys its a book by the author of the name of the rose...theme similar to the davinci code but supposedly more based on real history i think
<FlipinEck> sorry to do that three times
<FlipinEck> oh no
<lyonnesse> I was speaking of the TC serie
<FlipinEck> it is no more or less likely to be true
<MerrysPlace> do we want to do one like da vinci so soon?
<FlipinEck> like Brown he writes a story
<lyonnesse> YES !
<lyonnesse> LOL
<dpd> but it is not a small book so many may not finish it in one month
<MerrysPlace> what about something lighter? The Giver by Lois Lowery?
<_really> flip are you saying it's another total lie? :)
<_really> not fantasy..we just read fantasy in the davinci code
<FlipinEck> I'm saying it's another work of fiction
<MerrysPlace> _really - the one I mentioned is fiction.
<lyonnesse> hello maj :)
<_really> what one?
<lyonnesse> all are fictions ;)
<MerrysPlace> The Giver, by Lois Lowery
<_really> im a fiction
<_really> whats it about?
<MerrysPlace> lol
<lyonnesse> no you are fictitious :P
<Miles_V> the Autobiography of _really
<MerrysPlace> its a newbury award winner. So its meant more for kids, but it has some interesting ideas about what happens when a group doesn't retain memories or pain
<FlipinEck> Has everyone read the Phillip Pullman books?
<FlipinEck> Northern Lights
<FlipinEck> etc
<Miles_V> wnope ?
<lyonnesse> not me
<FlipinEck> they are pretty darn good
<MerrysPlace> the compass one.
<Miles_V> tell us more Flip
<FlipinEck> they were called something different when they were published in the states so I don't knwo what
<FlipinEck> they are also Newberry Award winners I think
<_really> thats fantasy
<FlipinEck> first one anyway
<FlipinEck> they are ostensibly for kids but are among the more thought provoking and well written books I've read in a long while
<_really> please lets pick something that's not fantasy
<FlipinEck> you want non fiction?
<_really> i want fiction
<FlipinEck> eh?
<_really> fantasy is NOT fiction
<lyonnesse> LOL
<Rapture> :)
<FlipinEck> I would have thought fantasy was the ultimate fiction
<FlipinEck> !
<lyonnesse> what about a John Irving book ?
<FlipinEck> deprimant
<lyonnesse> LOL
<_really> which john irving book? some of his are great...others boring
<FlipinEck> yeah
<_really> which irving book do you have in mind?
<lyonnesse> mmh dunno the english titles
<FlipinEck> what about Invisible Man by Ralph Ellison
<_really> whats it about?
<FlipinEck> or Love on the Dole by Walter Greenwood
<lyonnesse> world according to Garp ?
<FlipinEck> they are not fantasy
<lyonnesse> or a David Lodge one ?
<FlipinEck> or Confederacy of Dunces
<_really> im for world according to garp....i read that years ago and id love to read it again
<FlipinEck> John Kennedy Toole
<lyonnesse> though they are not available in ebooks
<FlipinEck> that's a gem
<lyonnesse> oh yes this one is great !!!
<FlipinEck> I think they are actually
<lyonnesse> I loved it
<_really> i started confederacy of dunces and found it just too boring
<lyonnesse> oh really FE ?
<lyonnesse> do you have them ?
<lyonnesse> how boring ?
<lyonnesse> it is so funny !!!
<FlipinEck> I have Confederacy of Dunces
<_really> funny?
<_really> it was silly
<FlipinEck> it is very amusing
<lyonnesse> yes this one ok
<FlipinEck> imho
<erhua> want to debate something more controversial than davinci and have sold more, do the bible next :p
<lyonnesse> don't judge a book you didn't read entirely :P
<_really> why not?
<FlipinEck> or!
<FlipinEck> Ridley Walker
<lyonnesse> because you don't have all the cards in hand :P
<FlipinEck> by Russell Hoban
<_really> what is ridley walker?
<_really> i dont judge a book by it's cards
<FlipinEck> I have that too
<lyonnesse> ROFL
<FlipinEck> great book
<lyonnesse> I didn't read this one
<FlipinEck> Or 'Nights at the Circus' by Angela Carter
<FlipinEck> lovely book
<_really> wha about a canticle for leibowitz.....?
<_really> if we're going to have fantasy and we want false history thats the best there is
<lyonnesse> LOL !
<MerrysPlace> what is the Nights at the Circus about?
<Miles_V> What about Audrey Niffeneggers' 'The Timetravelers Wife' ?
<FlipinEck> yeah I wouldn't mind reading that
<_really> miles..ive heard some good things about that one...id read it
<_really> good idea miles
<lyonnesse> dunno it
<Miles_V> is it available in eBook yet?
<dpd> seems good to me Miles
<_really> it's sf but it's also suppsedly a very good novel
<_really> i dont think it's actually sold as sf
<Miles_V> In The Time Travler's Wife, Niffenegger's first book, Henry is a librarian given to occasional uncontrollable bounces through time. Clare is an art student, and the two deal with Henry's condition. The story is part science fiction, part character study, part love story.
<FlipinEck> http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0340822775/202-8032015-1440648 is what I'm reading at the moment
<MerrysPlace> seems cool. and its avaliable in #bookz
<Rapture> good!
<FlipinEck> It's interesting
<Miles_V> and here --> http://www.januarymagazine.com/fiction/timetrav.html
<MerrysPlace> do we have an agreement on a book?
<FlipinEck> but I think Miles's is a good suggestion
<MerrysPlace> Time Traveler's Wife?
<dpd> the book is available as an ebook in bookz
<_really> i do too. thats one id like to read
<Rapture> I read the review of that book few weeks back. seemd interesting...........
<lyonnesse> oh so that is nice
<Miles_V> I just need to confirm if it is avaialble in eBook form
<MerrysPlace> its avaliable in .htm, .lit, and .rtf
<Miles_V> trying to d/l it now
<dpd> Miles it is - i just checked
<Miles_V> can you send me a copy then DPD?
<dpd> htlm, rtf and lit versions were there
<lyonnesse> :)
<_really> its available in audio as a 12 hour abridged book...weird
<lyonnesse> and one for me too :)
<_really> how long is the real book?
<dpd> i will send one to lyonnesse via msn
<Miles_V> nevermind found lots of hits
<MerrysPlace> MV - htm, lit or rtf?
<Miles_V> 500 pages
<lyonnesse> yes and I can send it to Miles after that
<lyonnesse> :)
<lyonnesse> who wants it ?
<Miles_V> sooo what do you all think?
<Miles_V> I haven't read it myself yet - but I've hear some good reviews
<dpd> let us do it this month and Eco's book the month after that
<lyonnesse> :)
<Miles_V> thx lyo :D
<lyonnesse> yw :)
<_really> ive heard very good things about it too
<_really> im for that
<_really> merrys this is supposedly the only book ever written for you and me...fantasy and literary value
<_really> bye merrys
<lyonnesse> have a nice evening :)
<FlipinEck> okay, do we decamp to the land of the endledss discussion of torrents
<dpd> bye MerrysPlace
<_really> merrys i cant send the next book till you have this one...emaill me to let me know
<Rapture> byee Merrys
<FlipinEck> and obscure parts of computers
<FlipinEck> ?
<Miles_V> Good night peeps - Thx for a great eveing!
<Miles_V> evening
<FlipinEck> night Miles!
<_really> bye miles
<dpd> bye Miles_V
<lyonnesse> Good evening Miles :)
<MerrysPlace> thx :)
<FlipinEck> someone let me know when the next one is or I will forget all about it
<_really> flip i'll try but my memory isnt the best so try to get otherss too
<_really> but i tend to be loquacious so if you hang on my every word you'll probably be reminded
<dpd> FlipinEck it should be on the last sunday of March about the same time
<Miles_V> March 27 at 20H00 GMT - Niffenegger's "The Time Travelers Wife"
<Miles_V> the 4th Sunday of every month isn't it ?
<dpd> yep
<_really> 4th or last?
<lyonnesse> LOL
<lyonnesse> always arguing eh ?
<lyonnesse> :P
* MerrysPlace changes topic to 'Niffenegger's "The Time Travelers Wife" - DD 03/27 - Discussions are held @ 20h00 GMT = 3 pm EDT. Sit back, relax and chat awhile - no serving'
<_really> no im asking
<Miles_V> 4th
<_really> thanks miles
<Miles_V> or is it last?
<_really> ive ruined my reputation :)
<Miles_V> :)
<dpd> 4th
<lyonnesse> ROFL Miles_V
* iceni sets mode: +l 34
<Miles_V> how low can you go _really :D
* DaveX_Svr notes the distinction doesn't matter until may :)
<erhua> it's an unholy hour for us on the other side of the planet earth... 4AM!!!
<_really> lower than that, im pretty sure
<Rapture> Well, i Enjoyed the Discussion today. I have to Sleep now ...... Byee Everybody....
<_really> where are you erhua?
<lyonnesse> bye Rapture :)
<_really> bye rapture
<Miles_V> Bye!!!
<lyonnesse> pleased to met you :)
<erhua> Asia
<Miles_V> Good night all :D till the 27th it is :)
<lyonnesse> going also :)
<_really> bye miles
<lyonnesse> I wish everyone a good night :)
<_really> bye lyonnesse
<Rapture> byee _really, Miles_V. lyonnesse, nice meeting you too.
<_really> good night
<_really> i guess im going too....stuff to do
<Rapture> Good Night.
<_really> bye
<erhua> bye _really
<erhua> all